ORIGIN OF POVEREST

Why is Poverest so named? I have no idea, but the 1870 Ordnance Survey Map shows a Poverish Farm

HISTORY

I am always interested to hear about the history of Poverest (including the Poverest Recreation Ground - or Poverest Park) so if you have any interesting facts and especially photographs of the area to share, then please do get in touch. You can see an earlier piece on "Slopers Island"., a small area bounded by Bridge Road, Poverest Road, Cross Road and Fordcroft Road.  We have already had an email from a former Poverest resident, now in sunny Australia!. She lived in Poverest Road from 1944.  At the foot of Poverest Road, there is the remains of a Roman Bath House which is open every year by Bromley Museum. If you're interested in archaeology, then you may wish to join ODAS (see below).

St. Mary Cray Action Group

An established charity , the St Mary Cray Action Group endeavours to secure the preservation, protection and improvement of features of historical and conservational interest in St Mary Cray Village and environs. Monthly meetings, in The Vernon Hall, St. Mary Cray High Street, are organised to promote civic pride and awareness in the environment, whilst cooperating with local authorities and charities.

Amongst its publications is the 'Illustrated Guide to St Mary Cray and the Upper Cray Valley'. Price £7.50 including p & p.  As well as historic descriptions of the villages of St Mary, St Paul's and Foot's Cray the extensive use of old photographs, together with illustrations from old catalogues and the author's line drawings, create a real lively picture of a diverse community.

Available from:-
Tony Lathey
St. Mary Cray Action Group,
15 Whitefield Close
St. Paul's Cray
Orpington Kent.
BR5 3LD

Orpington & District Archaeological Society

ODAS, have since 1975 promoted the study of archaeology in the Upper Cray Valley by undertaking excavations, researching the area's archaeology and arranging meetings and visits. Of particular interest of Poverest folk, is the annual opening of the Anglo-Saxon cemetery and Roman Bathhouse at the bottom of Poverest Road. A long-term project has been the excavation of the Scadbury medieval moat in Chislehurst which continues weekends between May and September when it is open to the public over a weekend. 

Meetings are held on 1st Wednesday of each month, at the Orpington Library and Museum.  If you would be interested in joining, contact the membership secretary at 99 Lockesley Drive, Orpington  BR5 2AB.

Slopers Island

I have written a brief history of the area known as Slopers Island.

Letters and Appeals for Information

Racheal Seekings emailed : ( September 2011 )

Hello Graham

I was very interested to read your webpage on Poverest containing family memories of the area. After carrying out some family history research I have discovered that my ancestors lived in the Poverest area! I'd be very interested to read any information you may have on the Gregory or Mills families who both lived in Poverest Road in 1901. My Grt grt grt Grandmother Sarah Mills, her son Aaron Gregory and my grandfather Walter Gregory all lived at Epsom Cottages in Fordcroft.

Interestingly enough I see in Farnborough Poor House records that Sarah Mills lived in the Lads of the Village public house during 1890, after her husband died. Must have been interesting as she had 3 children under the age of 18 still living with her!

Do you know where I could find any pictures of the Epsom Cottages? Would be interesting to see what they looked like.

I recently wrote to someone who was featured on your Poverest web site and his sister had memories of the Hayes family who appear to have been well known in the area. My grt grandmother, married to Walter Gregory , was a Hayes. Her name was Alice Hayes. She came from a large family of girls and also lived in Poverest Road! As my grandmother (born in st Mary Cray) has recently died I am unable to gather any memories of these ancestors which i find sad. If we do not pass on stories of our ancestors we allow them to disappear from memory.

Thank you for your help with this matter.

Regards

Racheal Seekings

..so if anyone can help Rachael, email us and I will pass her details on.

Alan Swift wrote:

Hello Graham. A  little information you may be interested in.   

 
My Grandfather Harry Kingham was the coal merchant you mentioned. He lived opposite the terraced cottages in Poverest Road (now demolished) and had quite large family.  His daughter [my mother] Florence  married George Swift, a well known family that lived in the cottages. As a youngster I can remember visiting the cottages. My grandfather eventually moved his coal business to Rutland Way, and it was passed to his son Ben Kingham.  Probably does not mean much but both families were well known in the area. I was born in Star Lane in 1936 and lived in the Crays until 1978 and am now living in east Dartford . My father lived in the terraced cottages [now demolished] opposite H.Kingham and sons, Poverest Road. i visited my dads parents when I was very young so cannot recall the buildings opposite. My father worked at Joynsons and also for E.O.Sullivan who had quite a large construction company , and built many houses in the areas you mentioned.  My sister,  email  margnsteve1@tiscali.co.uk. who is 4 years older may have a better memory.  I hope this has been of some help. 
 
Cheers Alan Swift

Allan Crawley, who read my piece about Slopers Island.  wrote:

Graham, I came across your web page while Googling St Mary Cray and thought that I would drop you a note. 

My interest, as you may gather by my name of Crawley, is in my family history, the Thomas Crawley that you mention was my grandfather.  He trained as a Master Fishmonger roundabout 1888-93 and moved to St Mary Cray prior to 1896.  At that time he lived in Wellington Road and later in St Mary Cray High Street before moving to Fordcroft, sometime between 1918 and 1927.  While in Wellington Road he must have been quite a local business man as he had a number of people working for him and he had fish and greengrocery rounds around East Hill and Chelsfield areas as well as the stall outside the White Hart in Orpington High Street.  He and his wife Clara had a number of children over a considerable period of time  (20 years) but there must have been a lot of coming and going in a 2 bedroom house! 

As a child I used to be minded by my grandmother and aunt ( married name Epsom) at Fordcroft, which was an end of terrace rented house, where the front room had been turned into a greengrocers shop.  You mentioned that Thomas's stock was kept out the back, that is not all, when my father was a child one of his jobs before going to school each day was to harness the horse which was kept in the stable and presumably accessed via the alley way. 

As a child I used to play around the alleyways that you mention and remember Bill Watsons greengrocers shop, I also remember Driscolls a grim looking lodging house with roller shutters always rolled down I seem to remember, and always hastened past it.  Family names that I remember from that time ( around 1952-58) are Mr and Mrs Gladwell, the Manning Family and a Miss Christmas all living in Bridge Road. 

My grandmother lived at Fordcroft until about 1958-59 I would think, until she was too old to stay on her own, her daughter then took over the shop for several years before closing it for good. 

 I would be interested if you have any information relating to the Crawley family within your records. Incidentally my aunt Eleanor married a William Epsom, the great. grandson of the Solomon which you also mention.  I was not aware that that there were a row of cottages called Epsom cottages in Fordcroft and wonder where they were and which one of the Epsoms built them?

 If anyone can add to this, please get in touch with me and I will pass the information on to Allan.

Sally Pennington wrote:

I have been looking at the letters and appeals for information linked with Poverest and St Mary Cray and thought you might be interested in the following which corrects a few mistakes. 

My maternal great-grandparents moved to St Mary Cray around 1908-1910 and our family has been established here ever since. The 2 buildings under discussion in St Mary Cray High Street near Park Road did belong to the Co-Op at one time and they used to let out the large halls.  My parents held their wedding reception there in 1951.  In the 1960s the Iron Curtain Club operated from one of them and in the 1970s there was a Bingo Hall. They weren't demolished but have been renovated and turned into flats.  

The Rolling Stones never played at the club.  Mick Jagger lived in Wilmington a couple of doors away from the aunt of a friend of mine; never in Farnborough Park as far as I am aware.  He went to Dartford Grammar School - hence the Mick Jagger Centre. However, because of brushes with the law regarding drugs, the school did not acknowledge him as an ex-pupil for some years. Keith Wheatland's memories are the most accurate and he may remember seeing some groups at 'The Curtain' but many more of them played at the Orpington Civic Centre - now Crofton Halls - during the 60s.  I believe the gigs were stopped eventually due to the 'misbehaviour' of some of our local youngsters.

A smaller club was in a wooden premises in a small row of shops at the bottom of Orpington High St in the 1960s.  It was held upstairs and was called the 'Hi Hat'.  It was definitely a major risk with regard to fire.  The shops were on the corner of Chislehurst Road and the High Street and were replaced with a block of offices some years ago.

Regards,

Sally Pennington

 

Bromley Museum

Priory Gardens, Orpington (next to the Library). Curator Marie-Louise Kerr on 01689 873826. More information

Bits & Bobs

St. Mary Cray Village Hall, in the High Street, is run by "Cray Valley Library & War Memorial Institute" (actually, Cray Valley War Memorial Hall at the Charity Commissioners). One of its Trustees is Martin Curry, Lib Dem Councillor for Cray Valley East.

The St. Mary Cray Fire Station in Market Meadow got a petrol engined fire appliance, registration KT 1769, in the Spring of 1914.

In the book The Teds there is mention of an incident that happened in St. Mary Cray in 1954 "In April, two gangs, dressed Edwardian-style, met after a dance, at St. Mary Cray, Kent, Railway Station. They were ready for action: bricks and sand-filled socks were used. Fifty-five youths were taken in for questioning."  I wonder where they had been that night? The Star Club (later Iron Curtain Club) in St. Mary Cray High Street ?

The Star Club - extracted from The Knowhere Guide -

"Can anyone confirm that Number 231 High Street St Mary Cray was used as a music venue? Someone said it was a CO-OP hall at one time and someone said the Rolling Stones appeared there! Everyone (old!) says they remember Threshers off licence and the queues down the road waiting to go in but no hard evidence. This building is the large cream Georgian house close to Alldays and The slip road to the Duke. Also, the row of five cottages to the left of this building, set back 60 feet, rumoured to be farm cottages, not alms houses, anyone know the date of building? Old washed out sign is just readable as 'Cray Cottages' 221-229 High Street, shortly to be restored back to former glory. "

Refrectory Relections - University of Leeds"

John Rettie ( who grew up in Orpington) wrote: "I grew up in Orpington, Kent and regarded the Stones as my “local” group. Before they became stars they performed at the Iron Curtain club in St. Mary Cray, where I started going there when I was 16 just a few years after the Stones performed on stage. What’s more, a decade earlier Bill Wyman had gone to the same grammar school as me (Beckenham and Penge). Mick Jagger lived in a mansion in Farnborough Park, which was an exclusive housing estate not far from where I lived. "

I have now had an email  from Keith Wheatland ( originally from St. Paul's Cray ) about The Iron Curtain Club in St Mary Cray High Street:

"...l also lived in the Poverest area for a few years. The club mentioned in "Bits and Bobs" on the History Page was called The Iron Curtain Club. However, I'm pretty sure that the building the club used to be in was demolished and redeveloped many years ago. Neither The Rolling Stones or The Beatles ever played at The Iron Curtain Club, but most of the biggest British and overseas bands did. This included The Who, Swinging Blue Jeans, Eric Burdon and The Animals, The Four Tops, Fontella Bass, The Mersey Beats, and the list goes on. I used to go there every week from 1963 to 1966 approximately. The club used two floors of the house, with the upstairs being a drinks bar (soft drinks only). By today's standards the place would have been closed down as an extremely bad fire risk. The house was extremely small and at times you were standing shoulder to shoulder with the bands. From memory the club opened about 4 times a week, Friday, Saturday nights, and Sunday afternoons, with the occasional Wednesday. "

Regards

Keith Wheatland

A very old pub in St Mary Cray High Street

During some local history research, a local has discovered that there was a pub called The Lads of the Village in St. Mary Cray High Street. In was on the corner of the High Street and a very old road (now disappeared) called the Old Landway. It apparently closed in the 1930s and the building became a doss house before either being demolished or bombed during the 2nd World War. Can anyone add anything to this ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"The Story of Green Street Green" by Marjorie Ford and Geoffrey Rickard. [ISBN 0 901002 16 X]. Tells the story of the village from Roman times. Available from Bromley Central Library (020 8461 7170).

North West Kent Family History Society

Has the object of encouraging and aiding the study of family history and genealogy in South East London and North West Kent.  Website

The History Channel's new oral history project, 'a small piece of history'